日本军国主义的军队 The Japanese Imperial Army soldiers
它找到了我的母亲 found my mother
要侮辱我母亲 And they wanted to rape my mother
我母亲不从 我母亲就反抗 My mother resisted
在反抗当中 She fought back
我母亲手里还抱着我那个弟弟 still carrying my little brother
抱着我那周把岁的弟弟 carrying my one-year-old brother
那个日本兵 Those Japanese soldiers
他就从我母亲手里把我弟弟夺过来 snatched my brother from my mother
对着地上 把他活活摔死了 and smashed him to death on the ground
我母亲刚奔了过去 As soon as my mother rushed over
那个日本兵又拿起枪 the Japanese soldiers grabbed their guns
对我母亲就打了两枪 and fired off two shots at my mother
当时就把我母亲打死了 My mother was shot to death right there
过了两天 two days later
他们又发现了我的父亲 they discovered my father
发现我的父亲 就把我的父亲抓了 and captured him
我父亲就在一九三七年的那一天 My father was taken away by them in 1937
被他们抓走 一抓去 就再也没回来 He never came back
父亲刚被日本人抓走的两天 Two days after they took away my father
他们又发现了我的二姐 they saw my second eldest sister
发现我的二姐后 他们就把我二姐抓了 after they spotted her they snatched her
要对她进行侮辱 and wanted to rape her
我二姐坚决不从 坚决跟他们反抗 My sister resisted she tried to fight them off
日本兵就把军刀抽出来 one soldier drew out his long sword
把我十三岁的姐姐活活劈掉了 and butchered my thirteen-year-old sister
劈掉以后 我们见到我姐姐的尸体 After he slashed her we saw my sister's corpse
我姐姐的头从这儿被他砍成了两半 Her head had been chopped into two halves
以后 就只剩我和老五弟兄两个在那儿 From then on it was just me and my fifth brother
在那儿天天哭 The two of us We cried every day
让我震惊的是 What struck me was
幸存者们不仅要背负着 not only did these survivors have to live with these
精神和肉体上的疮口 physical and psychic scars
而且他们大多数都很贫困 but most of them were dirt poor
贫困潦倒到令人难以置信 Poverty-stricken beyond belief
他们挤在狭小的房间里 They were crammed into these tiny rooms
一无所有 they had nothing
(还是个孩子) Just a little child
(他们把你的所有夺走) they took it all away
(你的血 你的生命) your blood your life
(你的依靠 你的信念) your trust your faith
(死后 在痛苦中重生) You died reborn in pain
(红得像河) Red as the river
(像城门般雄壮) looming large the gate
(你心里的黑暗) darkness in your heart
(溺在恨里) drowning in hate
(我将奉献一生 让你的真相昭示) I'll dedicate my life to get your stories told
(我会把声音带给失语的人) I'll give voice to the voiceless
(被迫沉默太久了) silenced for too long
(为了真理正义而呐喊) Crying out for justice
(被迫沉默太久了) silenced for too long
(如果你愿意把痛苦付托给我) Trust me with your pain
(我会把它当作是自己的来承受) I'll take it as my own
(我会为真相而战) I'll fight to get the truth told
(我的笔墨就是我的武器) my weapon is my word?
所有这些石头 All these stones
他们代表了千千万万的受害者 thousands and thousands of themrepresenting the victims
当我闭上眼睛 When I close my eyes
我几乎能够听到他们的呐喊 I can almost hear their screams
回想当时最后一次送她上计程车 When I think back
她就到机场 and I saw her to the taxi
真没想到这是永别 这绝对没想到 I never would have thought it would be our final farewell
非常非常遗憾 Such a great regret
她试图想把自己融入到 She immersed herself
这个历史事件中去 in this history
似乎她自己就是这个历史事件中的一员 It was as if she saw herself within this history
用自己切身的感受、体会 and actively used her feelings
写出这本书来 to experience
她这本书 不是用笔写的 Her book was not written with a pen
是用心写的 It was written with her heart
嗯 嗯 没事 Uh-huh Yeah Ohnothing
我起晚了 现在得走了 but I have to go because I woke up late today
嗯 嗯 好的 再见 yeah yeah yeah Okay Okay bye
我们是在一个作家协会中认识的 We met each other in a writer's group
当时她的书《蚕丝》快要出版了 Her book the Thread of the Silkworm was about to come out
对此她很兴奋 she was very excited about that
我俩很投缘 一下就熟络了 We just hit it off right away
即便在那个时候 She was even at that point
她就已经是非常非常热情的 very very intense
对什么事都感兴趣 and just interested in everything
总是喜欢提问 Always asking questions
对她来说 没有什么事情是不可能的 For her nothing was impossible
如果存在障碍 那也是一个挑战 If there was an obstacle it was a challenge
障碍是用来克服的 It was something to be overcome
也许它们还代表着潜在的机会 maybe something that even represented an opportunity potentially
如果门关上了 她会从窗爬进去 If the door was closed she would climb in the window
她写书的时候 When she was in the book mode
就会全力投入进去 she would just stay focused onsomething forever
她会中午十二点起床 she would just get uP at twelve noon
然后一直工作到凌晨三、四点钟 work till three or four in the morning
每天都这样 and start the whole thing over the next day
在一开始 In the beginning
她真的很高兴能挖掘出这么多的故事 she really was very happy to get the story out
那些幸存者非常信任她 And those survivors really trusted her very much
她真的不想让他们失望 So she really did not want to fail them
我家的爸爸出来洗菜 My father went to wash vegetables
被日本兵看到了 was seen by the Japanese soldiers
他们开了三枪打死了我爸爸 They fired three shots and killed my father
打死在地上 He fell to the ground
可怜妈妈听到爸爸死了 My mother heard
她就出来看爸爸 She came out to look for him
妈妈也被他打一枪 and was hit by a gunshot too
妈妈也被打死了 Mama died too
可怜的妈妈倒在爸爸怀里头 She died in my father's arms
当时我才十一岁 I was just eleven years old
我听到妈妈死了 I heard my mother die
可怜我就跑出来看 and ran out to look
看到地上一滩血 I saw a pool of blood on the ground
身上全是血 Their bodies were all covered with blood
我还没喊出"爸爸" Before I could cry out for my father
日本兵也给我一枪 the Japanese soldiers shot me once
我这个膀子打断了 骨头打断了 This arm was hit the bone was broken
这身上烧得都是泡 My body was burning with blisters
胳肢窝就剩一点衣服 Under my armpit all that was left of my clothes were strips
我嘴里漫血 Blood was coming out of my mouth
死过来 活过去的 I was in between life and death
可怜爷爷就被打得头脑开花 My grandfather was beaten his head split open
脑浆和血往外淌 even his brainblood started gushing out
婶婶被他们找出来 They found my aunt
身怀七个月的孩子 She was seven months pregnant
他们把我婶婶拖出来之后 要强奸她 They dragged her out to rape her
可怜我婶婶跪在地上求他们饶恕 My poor aunt begged them to have mercy
不饶恕 But no
还是拖 kept dragging
婶婶叫"救命" My aunt cried out "Help me!"
婶婶被他们五个人轮奸 轮奸呀 And auntie was then gang-raped by them by the five of them
晚上大出血 晚上天黑时 That night
她就大血往下流 she started to hemorrhage
小孩子就跟着血淌 The baby went with each drop of blood
小孩子死掉了 and so the baby died
可怜婶婶夜里就发高烧 My aunt burned with a high fever that night
婶婶也死了 She died too
那两个日本兵端起了枪 一端起枪 Two of the Japanese soldiers lifted their rifles
就把我们所有的人围在中间 and grouped all of us together
然后用枪把人朝外面赶 They picked people out of the groupwith their rifles
赶出去的人 The people they picked
都是老年人 老头老太 were all the elderly
妇女 还有一帮小孩 the women and the children
我也在内 小孩 I was one of the children
一帮年轻的人就在那个时候被带走了 Then young men were taken away
到了第二天 The next day
街头巷尾 大家一起出来 everyone was out in the streets
互相问同样的问题 Asking each other the same question
"你家的小孩回来没有" 'Has your son returned yet?"
或者"你家的丈夫回来没有" or"Has your husband returned yet?"
就互相询问 That's what they asked each other
都不知道 But nobody knew
都回答说"不晓得 都没有回家 They had the no answers Nobody returned home
到塘边上一看 By the pond
横七竖八地躺着好些人 the dead were sprawled everywhere
再一看 死人 全是死人 All dead people
他们的膀子一个膀子一个膀子拴住 Their hands were tied at the back chained together
这样子拴住 就这么跪着 And they were kneeling
他们是从后面开枪的 This was so
一开枪他们就往前倒下去了 when the soldiers shot them in the back
后面的倒在前面人的身上 They would fall on each other
想跑又不能跑到河里去 They were not able to run and jump in the river
到了江东门桥 We arrived at East Gate Riverside Bridge?
那个桥在战争的时候已经被炸掉了 which had been destroyed by
打仗的时候毁掉了 the bombing
当时是冬天 河水很浅 河水很少 It was winter time and the water was shallow
过河怎么过呢 How were we going to cross the river?
因为我们到上新河去 This was the only way to get to Shang Xin River
必须要经过那个河道 要过河 We had to cross the river
这时大家一看河底下垫了很多尸体 Then we saw that there was a huge amount of bodies in the river
铺了一条路 用尸体铺了一条路 forming a path to cross the river
这路恐怕是日本侵略军 I believe this was created by the Japanese
硬把中国人拖去垫的 as they forced groups of Chinese people there
垫的一条"路" and made this'path'
上面就铺着一层木板 Wooden boards were laid on top of the corpses
我和祖母都是走在那木板上走过来的 and I walked across the river with my grandmother
两边不是头就是脚 On both sides all you could see were heads and fee
不是头就是脚 heads and feet
我们就这么一路走过河的 and that's how we crossed the river
我记得有时候 I remember sometimes
我面对着那些文字 just having a physical reaction to the atrocities
都会产生生理反应 that were on my word processor
很多次 On various occasions
我开始痉挛性地颤抖 I started trembling convulsively
停不下来 and not being able to shop
好一阵子都停不下来 it would take some time before I stopped shaking
后来我注意到我开始脱发 And also I noticed tremendous hair loss
在梳头发的时候都会有大片的头发脱落 just patches of hair disappearing
我记得很清楚 One day I remember vividly
她打电话来 she called
听上去情绪很差 she seems very dark in the mood
我能够感觉到她非常不快乐 I can see she's very unhappy
情绪沮丧 很伤心 and depressed sad
我说 I said
"你确定要继续写这本书吗?" Are you sure you really want to continue to write this book?
身为母亲 我始终关心着她的健康 because as a mother I always worry about her health
她说 "是的 我必须写 And she said " Yes I have to
即使更糟糕我也要继续写 Even that bad I have to continue "
她说 "你看看 那些幸存者 She said " Look those survivors
没有人去关心他们 no one seems to pay attention to them
我必须要把那些暴行公诸于世 I'm the one who has to make this atrocity known to the world
跟他们的遭遇相比 And thinking about what they go through
我的不值得一提 what I'm going through is nothing
我必须写完这本书 So I have to finish it "
真正让我感到寒心的是 What was really chilling for me
实施这些暴行的人 was to discover that many of these atrocities
并不是什么生性残暴的恶魔 were committed not by people who were diabolical serial types by nature
而是普通的人 普通的公民 but by people who were very ordinary citizens
想起或谈起这些事 I still have a problem thinking about it
我心里仍然会很不是滋味 and talking about it sometimes
我内心的伤痛很深 The scars for me run pretty deep
因为它真的动摇了我最基本的信念 because it's really shaken my fundamental belief
"人性本善" that " humans are basically good at heart "
我再也不能完全的相信了 I can never entirely believe that again
入伍后最初的三个月里 For the first three months after joining the Japanese army
我们早上起床就被扇耳光 we were slapped when we woke up
一直要挨到晚上睡觉 slapped until we went to bed
起床晚了会被扇耳光 slapped when we got up late
不好好吃饭会被扇耳光 slapped if we didn't eat our meals properly
行为不规范时会被打耳光 slapped when our behaviours were not acceptable
扣子没扣好会被扇耳光 and slapped when our buttons were off
他们训练我们接受武士道精神 Thus we were trained to acquire the spirit of soldiers
我们就是这么被训练的 That was how we were trained
他们被当成废物一样对待 They were treated like dirt
是低微得不能再低的一群 they were the lowest of the low
进入了中国的首府之后 suddenly here they are in the capital of China
突然间他们拥有了比神还要大的权力 where they are more powerful than the Lords of Creation
所以不难理解 It's easy to see
在南京 他们把过去几个月 how all those months or a lifetime perhaps
甚至一辈子所受的压抑 of pent-up frustration
以不可遏制的暴力形式爆发出来 could explode in uncontrollable violence in Nanking
我们进村后 When we entered a village
当官的把留在村里的农民绑在树上 senior soldiers brought farmers and tied them to trees
我们在十米开外 We lined up in one vertical line
站成一排 about ten metres away
面对着这些农民 facing the farmers
一号 刺! 'No 1 charge!"
第一个人冲上去刺中一个农民 The first one charged and stabbed the farmer
但是刺刀有这么宽 But the blade has this much width
第一刀没法完全进入 which doesn't go in with the first stab
刺刀没能完全刺入身体 It didn't go into the body
滑了出来 只进去这么点 and the bayonet slipped in his hand
那中国人睁大眼睛 Only this much went in
啐了一口 The Chinese opened his eyes wide and spit
当官的说 "再刺" Then the senior soldier said " Try again "
士兵就再刺一刀 The soldier tried again
然而 杀一个人并不是那么容易 However killing a person is not easy
当官的说 "好好看着 我来示范" Then the senior soldier said " Watch me closely I'll show you "
当官的把刺刀 The senior soldier charged
转了九十度 and turned the bayonet by ninety degrees
这样刀刃就够薄 which made the width of the blade thin enough
刚好刺进肋骨 to go through the ribs smoothly
他教我们这种技巧 He taught us the trick
我们都轻而易举做成了 and we tried with easy success
他们就是这么训练我们杀人的 This was how we got trained to kill men
日军绝对是 The Japanese army were
提倡暴力行为的 certainly inculcated for violence
而且他们受到的教育是 and they were taught to believe that
中国是劣等民族 the Chinese were subhuman
从一些 When you look at some
日本军人当时写的日记里面 of the diaries of Japanese soldiers at the time
你会发现 他们把中国人当成蚂蚁 you'll see that they refer to the Chinese as ants
或者连猪、羊都不如的东西 or something of less value than pigs or sheep
我们曾经把中国人叫做"支那佬" We used to call the Chinese " Chankoro Chankoro "
把他们当成劣等民族 and regarded them as an inferior race
我们认为大和民族是优秀民族 We thought Japanese were superior
当时并不认为我们做的有什么不对 We didn't think we were doing anything bad
我们是报效天皇陛下 We did what we did for the Emperor
报效日本和日本人民 Japan and the Japanese people
所以当时我们认为我们做的是正确的 Therefore we thought what we were doing was good
日本军人剥夺中国人生命是很容易的 It was easy for the Japanese soldier to take Chinese life
因为他们连自己的生命都不重视 because he didn't even value his own life
除了天皇 Next to the emperor
任何人的生命都毫无意义 all human life was considered meaningless
我曾经和一个日本军人交谈 I talked with one Japanese soldier
他告诉我说 who told me that
他被教导 任务重于泰山 he was taught that duty was as heavy as a mountain
而自己的生命则轻于鸿毛 and his own life was light as a feather
对一个日本军人来说 and that the greatest honour fora Japanese soldier
最大的荣誉就是为国捐躯 was to come home dead
她想向世人揭露 She wanted a process
让人知道日军 by which people are trained
是怎样通过训练把别人视为低等动物的 to see other people are less thanhuman of be revealed
她意识到这些很容易做到 and Iris was cognisant that it's extremelyeasy to do
她希望这个事件能被记录下来 And she wanted this event recorded
因为也许某一天 because you don't know who
某个国家有某个人 in some future time in some other country
看了这本书会说 "不 我不 Reads this book and says " No not me
我绝不能让这种事发生在我的国家 I'm not gonna let this happen in my country
我的家乡 我的城镇 or in my place or in my town "
人们一直在争论死亡人数 People are always arguing about the numbers of dead
十四万或者三十万 They say it's 140 000 or 300 000
这些并不是重点 but that's not even the point
因为可以肯定的是 because what we do know for sure is
如果不是有少数西方人 many more would have died
在南京建立了25平方英里的安全区 if that small group of Westernershad not stayed behind
那死去的人只会更多 and set up that 2 5 square-mile safe haven
我意识到 I realized
这个故事中不光有恶人 也有英雄 this was a story with heroes as well as villains
最吸引我的就是约翰拉贝 The most fascinating of all I think was John Rabe
他是国际安全区委员会负责人 He was the head of the Safety Zone Committee
他是德国商人 He was a German businessman and
最有讽刺意味的是 ironically a Nazi
他是纳粹 纳粹中的人道主义者 a Nazi humanitarian
拉贝戴着纳粹臂章满城奔走 He would go throughout the city wearing his swastika armband
比起美国人 the Japanese actually respected
日本人更加尊重德国人 the Germans more than the Americans
因为当时日德两国是盟国关系 because they had a relationship with Germany at the time
拉贝经常在南京城内行走 Often he would drive or walk through the city
并设法阻止一些正在进行的暴行 and he would try to stop atrocities that were in progress
拉贝在自己的家里 He gave refuge
收容过六百名中国难民 to over 600 Chinese in his own house
当时他会好几天不睡觉 and for days would go sleepless
时刻提防着 ever vigilant of the constant threat
疯狂寻找女人的日本兵 of marauding Japanese soldiers looking for women
他与其他西方人冒着生命的危险 He and the other Westerners would risk their lives
为安全区域的二十万人 to collect and bring in food
收集和寻找食物 to the 200 000 in the safety zone
他也不断的 He also constantly petitioned
去日本驻南京的大使馆 the Japanese embassy in Nanking
呼吁制止强奸和谋杀 to stop the raping and murdering
之后 Consequently
南京的人们称他为活菩萨 the people of Nanking called him the Living Buddha
在最恶劣的屠杀过去之后 Rabe returned to Germany in February 1938
拉贝在一九三八年二月回到德国 after the worst of the massacre was over
然后他就杳无音讯了 and then he just vanished
他的故事在我脑海里挥之不去 I could never get his story out of my mind
于是我决定去探寻 so I decided to find out
他后来到底发生了什么事 what happened to him?
最后 Finally
她联系到了拉贝的孙女 she located John Rabe's granddaughter
乌苏拉莱茵哈特 Ursula Reinhardt
给她写了信 and then she wrote to her
乌苏拉告诉她拉贝留下了一本日记 Reinhardt told her there's a diary
她很振奋 Iris was so excited
我记得她立即打电话给我 I remember she called me immediately
她说‘你知道吗 You know she said
我不光找到了约翰拉贝 " I not only found John Rabe
我还找到了他的日记 and he had a diary! "
我找到了约翰拉贝在德国的后裔 I tracked down the decedents of John Rabe in Germany
得知他有一份关于大屠杀 and learned that he had kept
二千页的日记 a 2 000-page diary of the massacre
有好几次 A diary which on various occasions
他的家人都想把这本日记抛掉 the family had actually considered tossing it out
因为他们实在不忍去读 because the contents were too painfulfor them to read?
乌苏拉告诉我 Ursula told me that
拉贝从南京回来之后 when he returned from Nanking
他在柏林举行了一系列的公开讲演 he went around Berlin giving a series of public lectures
甚至给过希特勒一份 and even sent Adolph Hitler a detailed report
关于大屠杀的详细报告 about the slaughter
几天后 A few days later
盖世太保来到他的住处 the Gestapo showed up at his house
告诫拉贝 and Rabe was told
以后不要再提及南京的事情 never to talk about Nanking ever again
战后 After the war
因为他是纳粹党员 because of his Nazi Party membership
盟国不给他发就业许可 the allies would not give him a work permit
为了生存 So to survive
他变卖了珍爱的中国文物 he sold his treasured Chinese artifacts
以及所有的家当 and all his possessions
到最后全家只能靠喝汤度日 until his family was reduced to living off acorn soup?
中国人寄来了一封信 A letter from Chinese people arrived
告诉他他们非常仰慕他 and told him how they adored him
还说他救了许多中国人 how he had saved Chinese people
他们凑了钱 and they gathered money
并给拉贝寄来包裹 and sent care parcels to John Rabe
不幸的是 Unfortunately
当时拉贝已经病重 by then Rabe as a very sick man
几年后 a few years later
他在一九五零年死于中风 in 1950 he died of a stroke
很难去推翻拉贝日记 It's really hard to discredit the Rabe diaries
他提供的是强有力的证据 His evidence is far too powerful
是不可推翻的 and he can't be discredited anyway
他以第三方的身份见证了史实 I mean he is a third-party witness towhat happened
他就在现场 He was there on the scene
你怎么能否认他的报告 so how do you deny his reports??
一九三七年十二月 In December of 1937
日军入侵中国南京 Japanese troops invaded the city of Nanking China
六十年后 Now after sixty years
那里发生的事 the story of what took place there has been written about
写成了一本书《南京大屠杀》 in a new book called the Rape of Nanking
作者是张纯如 It was written by Iris Chang
我们很高兴 and we're pleased
在今晚的节目中请到她 to have her here on this broadcast this evening
谢谢 thank you
第一次印刷两千五百本 First printing was about 2 500 copies
结果很多人 It turns out a lot of people
尤其是东方人 中国人 especially the oriental the Chinese
想买这本书 want to buy that book
可是他们在书店里根本找不到 and they just couldn't find the books in the bookstore
其实 社团最大的帮助是 Actually the biggest help came from her community
他们把口述整理成书本 Because they sort of talking to basic books
这是令人震惊的事! This is outrageous
啊…是鸢尾花 非常漂亮 And they're Irises Oh beautiful thank you
我们几乎丧失了希望 Iris came along
不知如何让"南京大屠杀" When we almost lost hope in bringing
这一史实引起全世界的关注 the Massacre of Nanking
尤其是西方世界的关注 to the attention of the world
就在这个时候 张纯如出现了 particularly in the Western world
于是我立即主动提出 And I immediately offered
把这本书引进加拿大推广 to promote Iris' book in Canada
前提是我可以买二千本 provided that I could buy 2 000 of the books
这段历史在每个中国人心中 This chapter of history is so important
有着相当重要的分量 to every Chinese people's heart
尤其是从八十年代开始 especially starting from the 80s
日本的极端民族主义者 The Japanese ultra-nationalists
他们开始否认这段历史 they start to deny this chapter of history?
否认这些暴行 deny the atrocities
所以中国人确实感到 So they really feel that Iris is
张纯如在帮助他们 helping them to express
表达他们所受到的"不公正" their sense of injustice
表达他们的想法以及内心的感受 their feelings and their thoughts
南京大屠杀六十周年纪念 The 60th anniversary of the Rape of Nanking
我们组办了一次纪念音乐会 we organized a commemorative concert
座无虚席 and every seat was filled
上座率如此之高令张纯如非常惊讶 and Iris was surprised at the turnout
人们走过来和与张纯如交谈 They came to talk to Iris
并讨论怎么把这些信息 and also to discuss how to bring this knowledge
传递给世界上其他地方 to the rest of the world?
她的书出版后 What happened when Iris' book came out
给了许多像我这样的家庭一个启示 was that so many other families like mine
这些家庭长期生活在沉默的痛苦中 who had basically been suffering in silence
就像我的父亲 like my father had alone and isolated
一直一个人沉默的忍受着孤独 saw that here was this book that declared
现在这本书宣告了有千千万万的人 how many hundred of thousands of people
遭遇过这样的暴行 had experienced it
它给这些人带来了莫大的安慰 It lent a humanity to what they had suffered?
大量的书评涌入 The reviews started to pour in
大家都把它视为主流大作 and everybody saw this was a major book
通常一本书的巡回签售会持续两星期 A typical book tour lasts two weeks
大作的签售是两个月 a great book tour last two months
而这本书的签售持续了一年多 she did a book tour for over a year
这是连听都没听说过的 It was unheard of
我们不断廷长、廷长 再廷长 We kept extending it and extending it and extending it
这显示了这本书持久的热度 That's how long the interest sustained itself
它里面是有一个很重要的故事 There's a much more important story here
而不只是描述一些残忍的屠杀行径 than just the horrible ways in which people were massacred
《南京大屠杀》 I feel very fortunate that
成为畅销书我感到很幸运 the Rape of Nanking did become a bestseller
我不想让这段历史从此消失 I didn't want this story to just disappear
我不想让那么多人的生命 I didn't want all those thousands of people's lives to
从此灰飞湮灭 vanish into oblivion
所以我写了这本书 That's why I wrote it
真正困扰我的是 What really bothered me was that
日本的强硬势力 powerful forces out there in Japan
他们想让这段历史消失 wanted the story to go away
我认为这是对遇难者的侮辱 I just felt it was insulting to the victims
我认为每个人都应该阻止 and I think that individuals have to fight
种族屠杀的发生 to prevent these acts of genocide from happening
同时也不应该让它被遗忘 and then being forgotten
你们可以看她这本书的副标题 If you look at the title of her book
"被遗忘的大屠杀" The Forgotten Holocaus
这就是人们的感受 that's how people felt
它被遗忘是巨大的损失 It's a tremendous loss that was forgotten?
就像你指出的 As you point out
在南京的死亡人数 there were more people killed in Nanking
比广岛和长崎的死亡总人数还多 than in Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined
然而我们对南京的事似乎失忆了 and yet we have amnesia about Nanking
这是为什么 why?
我认为主要原因是冷战 I think the Cold War is the main reason
它使这个事件在世界范围内被遗忘 why we have this worldwide amnesia on the subject
在一九四九年以后 After i949
无论是中华人民共和国或是在台湾的中华民国 neither the People's Republic of China northe Republic of China in Taiwan
都没敦促日本进行赔款或者是道歉 wanted to push the Japanese for reparationsor an apology
因为讽刺的是 because both of them ironically
这两方都需要联合日本去对付对方 now needed Japan as an allyagainst each other
他们需要日本在政治和经济上的支持 and they needed Japan's economic and political support
我认为 到今天 To this day I think
两个政府 there was a reluctance on the part of both governments
都不是很愿意向日方提及这个话题 to broach the subject with Japan?
我认为张纯如的书捅了一个马蜂窝 I think that Iris' book stirred up a hornet's nest here
刺激了那些修正主义者 I think that people from the revisionists' school
去消弭或否认日军 want to minimize or deny
日军在战争时期的肆无忌'惮的行径 Japanese wartime excesses were provoked by it
关于暴行 存在着许多不同的观点 There's a real range of opinion here
南京成了有代表性的重要标志 Nanjing has become a very important and powerful symbol
反映了日本对中国做出的种种行为 of what Japan did to China
有些人完全否认 that ranges from total denial
说根本没有这事 itneverhappened
它完全是中国宣传者编造出来的 it's a pure fabrication of Chinese propagandists
也有人认为的确出了许多坏事 to yes lots of bad things happened
可都是战争时期不可避免的事 but those sorts of things tend to happen in war
可有一些人叫"屠杀研究派" to what is often called the massacre school
他们对南京到底发生了 which are people who actually are doing
什么做了极好的研究 excellent research about
对暴行的具体程度研究得很细 what went on in Nanjing and detailing the extent of the atrocities
尤其是那些针对"非战斗人员"的暴行 particularly against non-combatants?
八十年代初期 It was in the early'80s
日本右翼民族主义分子开始打击 that Japanese right-wing nationalists started to lash out
"屠杀研究派" at those in the massacre school?
有些日本人 一些勇敢的人 Some of those individuals in Japan courageous individuals
面对流放、恐吓 have face ostracism death threats
甚至是遭暗杀的威胁 and even assassination attempts
举例来说 几年前 For example a few years ago
长崎市市长被人用枪击中胸部 the mayor of Nagasaki was shot in the chest
仅仅是因为他公开表示 merely for stating his belief that
裕仁天皇应该对二战承担部分责任 Emperor Hirohito bore some responsibilityfor World War Two
本多胜一 是知名的记者及作家 Katsuich Honda a popular journalist and author
他曾经因为详细描写了日军的暴行 wrote detailed accounts of the atrocities
而遭受到恐吓 and because of death threats
从此他在公开场合不得不戴假发和墨镜 has worn a wig and dark glassesin public ever since?
我写了一部系列报导名叫《中国之旅》 I wrote a series of reports called'Travelling in China'
是对南京大屠杀幸存者进行的采访 interviewing survivors whohad memories of Nanjing
那是我当时最关注的 That was my main focus
后来我收到许多死亡恐吓信 I've received some death threats
不光寄到我工作的地方 也寄到我家 not only at work but also at home
甚至寄到我孩子上学的学校 even at the elementary school my kids were attending
我感到自己处境危险 I felt in danger
于是搬了家 从此不公开自己的地址 so we moved and our address has been unlisted since?
她收到过一些恶毒的恐吓信 She received some very ugly hate mail
因为这个原因 For that reason she kept
她从不告诉别人她的住址 her address private
我连她的私人电话号码都没有 I never even had her private phone number
有事我就给她发电子邮件 I e-mailed her on everything
我从来都不知道她的住址 I never had her address
她是担心自己的安全 She was concerned about safety
不过她绝对不会停下来 but she certainly wasn't going to stop
然而在日本 And yet there are people in Japan
一些显赫的商人、政治家、专家学者等 prominent businessmen politicians academics
不光是那些疯狂的极端主义者 so not just the lunatic fringe
都声称整个事件是一个谎言 who say that the whole thing is a lie
声称大屠杀从来没有发生过 that the massacre never happened
真是不可思议 It's incredible
南京 Nanjing
没有 no
一九三七年我们没有在那儿实施大屠杀 ma'am we did not commit any massacre there in 1937
(没有?) ( None? )
那是虚构的 That was fabricated
完全是中国人虚构的 a complete fabrication by the Chinese
(你不承认目击证人的证词 日本军人 ( You don't think eyewitness testimonies
的日记还有那些影片 以及…) Japanese soldiers' diaries and film footage and)
噢 那些影片是伪造的 Oh those film footage were made up
是中国国民党宣传部伪造的 By the Nationalist Chinese Propaganda Ministry
可是很遗憾 Unfortunately
尽管有大量的‘南京大屠杀的证据 a mountain of evidence on the Nanking Massacre
包括无数四种不同语言的档案资料 including thousands of archival materials in four different languages
以及照片 影片 as well as photographic and motion picture evidence
还有广泛流传的新闻报导存在 and widespread news coverage
但是日本极端分子 has not deterred these Japanese extremists
仍声称一切都是宣传 from dismissing it all as propaganda
是伪造的 or forgeries
我军可能杀了几千人 We may have killed a few thousand
但肯定不是十万 二十万 but certainly not in the order of100 000 200 000
或者三十万人 or 300 000
当时可没有人拿着计算器 Nobody was out there with their calculator
一个一个计算这边死了多少 click click click that many people died
那边被强奸多少 that many people were raped
我的意思是 没人会知道的 I mean nobody will ever know
如果争论总是集中在遇难者的确切人数 so if the debate is always fixated on getting the right number
而你要拿到确切的数字 and you can't say anything
才能有发言权的话 until you get the right number
这个争论就相持不下了 the debate will never go forward
我认为当人们看到对幸存者的采访 And I think when people see interviews with survivors
或者听到幸存者的讲述 or hear interviews with them
他们会意识到这的确发生过 they suddenly realize this did happen
这不能再否认了 It cannot be denied any longer
不要戳我母亲 不要戳我母亲 We screamed "Don't stab my mother!"
可日本兵不听 But the Japanese soldier wouldn't listen
母亲被捅倒的时候 My mother was stabbed
我的弟弟掉在地上 and my brother fell on the ground
"哇……" 在地上哭 'Waaahhh!"he cried
那日本兵抓着刺刀 The soldier with his bayonet
朝我弟弟屁股上面刺了一刀 stabbed him in the buttocks
然后就把我弟弟摔得好远 and flung him far away
这个时候 我看到他把我弟弟摔得好远 I saw him tossed really far
咕咚一下摔在地上 and then drop to the ground with a thud
我的弟弟哇哇哭 My baby brother was crying loudly
我就赶快跑过去 I ran over
趴在我弟弟身上 叫他不要哭 and threw myself on him and said
"你不要哭 我保护你" 'Don't cry don't cry I'll protect you"
我就趴在他身上 I laid on top of him
我的姐姐也拼命 My older sister threw herself
站在鬼子面前说 against the Jap crying
"不要戳我妈妈 不要戳我妈妈" "Don't stab my morn "
那鬼子也拔了刺刀戳我姐姐 but he used his bayonet to stab my sister
把我姐姐也戳倒了 stabbed my sister too
这个时候呢 The soldier started to stab
日本兵又开始戳我的弟弟了 my little brothers
我的弟弟一个一个全部被他捅死了 Every one one after another was stabbed to death by him
就在这个时候 我也大哭大喊的 I screamed and cried out loudly
"不要戳我妈妈 不要戳我妈妈" 'Don't stab my mama! Don't stab my mama!"
这时候我看他戳我弟弟 I screamed for my brothers to leave
我喊 弟弟也不走 but they couldn't
最后我昏过去了 In the end I fainted?
我就绕着死人堆 I went to the pile of corpses
地上全是血 there was blood everywhere
跨过死人以后 I stepped over the dead corpses
我就向那边走 顺着那个声音找 I walked toward the sounds of crying
结果看到了 两边都是死人 And I saw both sides were full of dead bodies
可是 我弟弟向前面爬 And my baby brother was crawling forward?
我就把他抱过来 抱过来一看 I lifted him up and I saw blood on his body
他身上的血直往地上掉 都结成冰了 dripping to the ground turning into ice
那天特别冷 because that day was especially cold
我就抱着我的弟弟 I carefully brought him
轻轻地跑去找我妈妈 to mama
把他放在我妈妈身边 and placed him at mama's side
这时候我妈妈看到我弟弟来了 When my mama saw my brother she struggled
就挣扎着拼命拽衣服 拽衣服 to tear open her clothes
是为了把衣服拽下来给我弟弟吃奶 so she could nurse my brother
这时候我弟弟爬到我妈妈面前 My brother crawled to mama
拼命地吸奶 and suckled hungrily
我弟弟也不懂事 My little brother was just a baby
他还小 他只知道吃奶 he only knew to feed
但是在他吃奶的时候 While he was nursing
我妈妈一呼吸 when mama breathed
那刀口就冒血泡泡 her wounds bubbled with blood
我看了非常难过 When I saw that it made me very sad
当时我就拼命地推 So then I shook with all my might
"妈妈 你醒来 你醒来" crying "Mama wake up wake up"
我推她 她也不醒 I shook her but she wouldn't wake up anymore
他们受过训练 They were trained
(你说的‘受过训练‘是什么意思) ( How do you mean " trained "? )
他们是按照中国当局的意思作的陈述 Oh by the Chinese authority to say those lines
(这些故事是当局教他们说的?) (They were given these stories?)
是的 Yes
我凝视过幸存者的双眼 looked into the survivors' eyes
倾听过他们的故事 I heard their stories
说他们的故事是编造的 For people to say they've made it all up
真令人难以置信 that's just unbelievable
日本人 The Japanese
应该去听听他们自己军人的话 should listen to their own soldiers
他们该去看看 and they should look into the eyes
这些幸存者的双眼 of the survivors themselves
因为正是这种扭曲的思想 because this mindset is exactly
导致了大屠杀的发生 what led to the massacre in the first place?
她会跟人争论 她会生气 She was arguing she would get angry
会激动 get emotional
并不是因为被人身攻击 Not because of a personal attack
而是因为他们否认 but because they deny
人们为什么不想面对事实? Why people don't want to face the truth?
问题是 The problem is
那些保守派政治精英们 that the conservative political elite
或多或少地试图发起一场集体性失忆 more or less tries to promote a collective amnesia
几十年来他们一直在漂白这段历史 and so they have been whitewashing this history for decades
日本需要以一种鲜明的姿态 Japan needs to make a dramatic gesture
来表明他们会为这段历史负责 that shows that it takes responsibility for what happened
承认那些暴行的程度 acknowledges the extent of those atrocities
并承诺继续对此进行教育 and is committed to continue to teach about those
确保这段历史不会被人遗忘 to make sure that this is not forgotten
我感觉修正主义者 And my feeling is the revisionists are
在搬起石头砸自已的脚 shooting themselves in the foot
他们越是想否认 消弭 The more that they try to deny minimize
推卸责任 shift responsibility
他们遭遇的反冲力就越大 the more of a backlash they're attracting
这并不只是来自海外 And this isn't just from overseas
也来自日本国内 it's from within Japan as well
近几年 In recent years
不同种族的"草根运动"在全球兴起 a multiethnic grassroots movement has emerged internationally
这些运动反对重写历史 to combat these efforts to rewrite history
参加运动的不光有中国人 a movement that includes not only the Chinese
韩国人 菲律宾人 the Koreans the Filipinos
犹太社团的重要成员 leading members of the Jewish community
还有许多美籍日本人 but also many Japanese-Americans
以及加拿大籍日本人 Japanese-Canadians
在日本本士的日本人 and Japanese nationalists
因为他们意识到人权问题 who recognize that human rights issues
超越了民族和种族问题 transcend those of nationality and ethnicity
正如你在南京感受到的 As you can feel here in Nanjing
日本犯下了许多罪行 the Japanese committed a lot of crimes
对这些罪行要负责 Crimes come with responsibility
对这些遭到巨大损失的人 It's only common sense
作出直接的赔偿和道歉 to offer apologies and reparations directly
这是天经地义的事 to those who suffered a great loss
但同时 对于我们日本人来说 But at the same time it is also important for Japanese to do so
更重要的是借此机会 because then we would have an opportunity
真正学习和了解我们自己的历史 to truly learn and understand our own history
对我们过去的历史 Having a good understanding
有一个正确的认识 of our own past of history
我们才能在未来的生活中 would give us better direction
找到更好的方向 on how we should live in the future
历史能教会我们许多 History teaches us lessons
我希望日本政府能够承认错误 I hope the Japanese government can admit to their mistakes
承认侵略不对 admit that the invasion was wrong
能够向人民低头 can bow their head to the people
向人民认罪服罪 can apologize to the people and acknowledge their crimes
那我心里才能平衡 Only then will my heart be at peace
不然我们心里总平衡不了 Otherwise my heart will never be at peace
她的下一本书是《华人在美国》 Her next book was the Chinese in America
她跟我说过好多次 She told me numerous times
她把写《华人在美国》 she considered that sort of
作为"假日计划" a holiday project
把它当作经历"南京暴行" a vacation after all of
之后的一次休假 the atrocities of Nanking
毕竟写《华人在美国》时心情 Emotionally it was a little bit
是相对放松的 easier on her
我想她觉得自己准备好了 so I think on several levels she felt more ready
该要个孩子了 to have the family
是时候了 and also that it was just time
克里斯托佛出生的时候 她开心极了 She was over the moon
从我看来 when Christopher came And she seemed to me
在写完《南京大屠杀》之后 throughout the period of the Rape of Nanking
她投入《华人在美国》的创作中 and well into the period of the Chinese in America
着眼于未来 focused on the future
考虑新的课题 thinking about new projects
与家人共用天伦之乐 happy with her family life
她很关心的美籍华人社团 happy with the increasing visibility
日益引人注目也令她高兴 of the Chinese-American organizationsthat she cared about greatly
我们美国人民以及浴血奋战的美国军队 We the people and the fighting forces of the United States
我们不懈的斗争 in our own blood our unremitting effort?
我第四本书的研究 Research for my fourth book
是从"巴坦战俘口述历史计划"开始 started with an oral history project on Bataan POWs
一个美国老兵写信给我 It was an American veteran who wrote
请我转述他们的故事 and asked me to tell their stories
日军轰炸珍珠港的同一天 The same day the Japanese bombedPearl Harbour
也袭击了菲律宾 they also attacked the Philippines
大约有一万名美国士兵 and about 10 000 U S
七万菲律宾士兵被迫投降 and 70 000 Filipino soldiers were forced to surrender
于是就有了著名的 and that led to what became known as the
"巴坦死亡行军" Bataan Death March
我们采访这些老兵的时候 When we do these interviews and talk to these veterans
心里很难受 it's difficult
听他们的故事很难受 It's difficult to hear their stories
读到他们当年的经历时 and to read the accounts of what these men went through
也很难受 and what they experienced
即使做完了 You walk away with these
也会有思想上的负担 thoughts sort of burdening you
我只能想像 I could only imagine that after
长达十一个月 11 months of again
一次次面对这些话题 dealing with this topic
一遍遍聆听这些故事 and hearing these stories over and over that
一定会产生巨大的负荷 that must have been a tremendous weight
沉重的精神负担 a tremendous emotional burden
我认为 她之所以选择这个题材 I think she took it on because
是因为她认为必须让人知道这个故事 she believed the story needed to be told
她认为她必须去帮助那些被他人 She saw herself as a facilitator for those
被有权利的人 who had been muted by others
被既得利益集团 those in authority by those who had
逼迫而保持缄默的人 an interest in not hearing these stories be told
这个正义是所有人的正义 And justice for all means justice for all
她不只是为中国人 she was not looking for justice for Chinese
为南京大屠杀的遇难者寻找正义 or for the victims of the Nanjing Massacre
她是为所有的人寻找正义 She was looking for justice for all
她在写《南京大屠杀》时获得的经验 Her experience with what she learned writing the Rape of Nanking
使她担心政府的集权 she was afraid of concentrated power in government
所以布希政府的一些所作所为 and so some of the things that the Bush Administration was doing
让她心神不安 just completely set her off
她对此会有强烈的反应 I mean she would react very strongly to that
在夜里 I lay awake at night
巴坦幸存者的声音萦绕在我的耳边 with the voices of the Bataan survivors
我睡不着 going round and round in my head
就像南京的一样 just like Nanking
声音不同 The voices are different
细节不同 the details are different
语言不同 the language is different
可是故事是一样的 but the story is the same
但是这些人 But these men
就像南京的人一样向我倾诉 just like the people in Nanking poured their hearts out to me
必须有人去聆听 去记录 somebody had to listen to record
并且去核实他们的遭遇然后公诸于世 and validate their experience by making it public
我回避不了 I couldn't turn away
就像以前一样 just like I couldn't turn away before
我也为记住这些故事是很重要的 And I also think it's important to remember these stories
它提醒我们 to remind us that
无论我们自以为有多文明 no matter how civilized we think we are
要让我们毫不犹豫地 it doesn't take much for us to get to the point
互相残杀是非常轻而易举地 where we can massacre each other without a second thought
最后 只剩下一个问题 And in the end I'm left with one question
疯狂何时结束? When will the madness end?
有时候她并不多跟我们说什么 And sometimes she didn't tell us as much
她只是一个人埋头工作 she just keep to herself working all the time
那个时候他好像 At that time
她总抱怨自己吃不下 she was complaining that she couldn't eat
睡不着 she couldn't sleep
她的情况好像从来没有这么糟糕过 It seemed like it was worse than it had ever been before
我们注意到 We noticed that
她好像已经筋疲力尽了 she is very exhausted
我感觉她的健康状况直线下降 and that's how I feel her health go down
她吃饭也不太好 And she couldn't eat very well
好像没有什么胃口 she didn't have much appetite
她睡得也不太好 and couldn't sleep well
我们当然很担心 of course we are very concerned ?
她有了孩子 She had a baby
而她又在写第四本书 she already had a fourth book to write
还要忙许多其他的事情 and all the other things you know
反正 她是负荷已经太多了 And somehow it just was too much for her
她要外出做调研 She was going on a research tour
并且在为此做准备 and she was getting ready for that
她几乎不睡觉 She wasn't sleeping during the day
白天工作 晚上工作 She was up all day and she was up all night
日以继夜地工作 and she was up all day and she was all up night
在她出发前 so she was probably up for three or four days straight
她大概连续三、四天没合眼了 before she went on the trip
她觉得要去采访 She felt she just had to get out there
尽可能多的幸存者 and interview as many of these survivors as she could
而且越快越好 as quickly as possible
时间不会等待那些幸存者 that time was against them
也不会等待她 and against her
某个星期一 One Monday I checked
我查我的语音信箱留言 my messages on the voice mail
听见有个留言说 "是我" and there was a call that said " It's me "
没留名字 但我知道是谁 no name but I knew who it was
救我 我在肯塔基 Help I'm in Kentucky at this number
打这个号码 救救我 Help me
我照着号码打了回电 是一家酒店 And I called the number and it was a hotel
他们告诉我张纯如已经退房了? and they told me was that Iris had checked out
八月份采访 She physically broke down in August
巴坦死亡行军幸存者的时候 when during the trip she was
她的身体垮了下来 interviewing survivors of the Bataan Death March
短短三个月 It's only three month
事情发生得是在太突然 it happened very fast
我们真的有很多疑问 Yes we really had a lot of questions
没有答案 we couldn't answer
她在肯塔基州精神崩溃后 我去过两次 I was up there twice after her collapse in Kentucky
那两次她都是蔫蔫的 and both times she was very flat
我认为她的冲劲 I think her drive
她的乐观情绪 her optimism
她所有的鲜明个性 都好像被 all of those defining characteristics
整个人就像被磨平了 it was like she was suddenly flat whereas before
尽管她以前是那么活力四射 she was just a vibrant ball of energy?
精神崩溃之后 她情绪抑郁 After she had her breakdown she was depressed
医生开的药 and then the medicine that she was given
反而使她更病恹恹 made her even more sluggish
他们认为 想要她恢复正常 They thought it would be a long long time
需要很长时间 before she was back to normal
或许 她永远没法恢复正常 Or probably never back to normal
她知道她已经不再是自己了 And she knew she wasn't herself you know
在某种程度上她知道 On some level she did know that
某个东西已经深刻地改变了她 And something had profoundly changed for her?
她很伤心很恐惧 She was very sad and very frightened
我觉得 她当时是意识到的 She was I felt cognizant
很在意失去了原先的自己 very cognizant of losing the person she once was
原来的张纯如消失了 再也回不来了 And that Iris Chang was gone and would never come back
没有药物 也没有疗法可以帮她恢复 No medicine no therapy was ever gonna bring it back
而她是知道的 And she knew it
她死之后 我的一部分好像也死了 After she died it seems part of me die too
可是我现在尽量往积极的方面去想 But I try to think more positively now because
因为她死的时候非常年轻 she died so young
我认为我们能做的 I think what we can do is
就是完成她没有完成的工作和梦想 to continue her unfinished work and her dream?
你们会发现 You are going to find
我们生活的这个世界 that we live in a world
国际法 in which international law
远不如国际政治和金钱 has much less to do with actual justice
更能实现真正的正义 than international politics and money
那些拥有权力的人 a world in which those who have power
经常以为自己凌驾于真理之上 often believe that they are above the truth
我最大的希望 My greatest hope is that
今天在座的各位当中 a few of you in this auditorium today
有几个人能成为 will actually serve as
为真、善、美而战的斗士 crusaders for truth beauty and justice in the future
我们需要这样的人 People like that are needed
为人类的下一代创造一个更美好的世界 to create a better world for the next generation of humankind
并保证人类文明的廷续 and to ensure the survival of our civilization
请相信个人的力量 Please believe in the power of one
一个人也能让这世界发生巨大的变化 one person can make an enormous difference in this world
一个人 one person
甚至是一个理念 actually just one idea
就能引发或结束一场战争 can start a war or end one
你 作为一个独立的个体 You as one individual
可以改变千万人的命运 can change millions of lives so think big
所以 不要局限你的视野 Do not limit your vision
永远都不要妥协你的梦想和理想 and do not ever compromise your dreams or ideals?
(我把声音给了失语的人) I gave voice to the voiceless
(而现在我的将要沉默了) now I'm silencing my own
(把我留下的 记住了) What I've left behind remember
(我在你心里活者) in you my spirit lives on
(寻找我的火炬) Find my light
(传下去) pass it on
(寻找我的火炬) Find my light
(传下去) pass it on